Wednesday, November 26th, 2008...6:15 am
[1002] Max calls for a Cartesian economics
Jump to Comments
Max and Stacy talk about what it takes for revolution; Descartes; a Cartesian economics; Diderot; French Revolution; Catholic Church; Thai protests; La Muse; Germany refusing to use debt as wealth; food stamps for bankers.
32 Comments
November 26th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Hi M&S,
So youse guys live in Diderot’s old pad, would that be the one at 39 rue de Richelieu, creepy eh, and there’s Stacy questioning whether I’m a fan or not. I’m your no:1 fan(atic) look out yer window I’m across the street waving hahahahahahahahaha (fiendish laughter).
BOO behind ye hahahahahahahaha (more fiendish laughter).
Have been listening to a bit of Alex Jones, your influence appears to be coming through on the show, more economics less MIB’s (men in black). Even noticed he has Peter Schiff posted up on his site.
Anyway all the best, and keep up the good work and BOO hahahahahahaha (you’ve guessed it, more fiendish laughter).
November 26th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
the british people in general are like the average american .they live in the land of denial and make believe. eastenders pub cafe shop coranation street pub cafe shop.\blameing americans?/ i think the average sun reader or daily mirror. daily sport reader probaly would.but then most of them are only intrested in page three girls sex scandals and football.soon they will have a very rude awakening and will not believe or be able to handle the crisis.we are prepared i have enough to ride out the comeing storm.i do belive that the new world order will not win and that civil wars are comeing especialy to america the country will break into several pieces and a lot of innocent people are going to die but then a lot of banksters will die to. hopefully a new fairer world will rise from the ashes.the phoenix will burn to ashes but will be reformed.WHY SHOULD THE EAGLE SHEATH ITS CLAWS AND FOLD ITS WINGS AND SIT IN THE EYRIE?WHEN THE EAGLE CAN UNSHEATH ITS CLAWS AND UNFOLD ITS WINGS AND FLY INTO THE SUN.THE HAWK HEADED MEN AND THE JACKAL HEADED MEN THINK I AM OF THE DOVE BUT LITTLE DO THEY REALISE MY EYES ARE UPON THEM ALL \/trilegarde oct 87/\
November 26th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Stacy, could this all be effectively called a “run on the planet”?
Is there some sort of galactic central bank we can call? Does anyone know Hari Seldon’s number?
November 26th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Karmabanque’s short sales have not been funded? That’s a pity.
I was so looking forward to this tactic working and the anti-corporate types laughing all the way to the bank/sovereign wealth fund.
November 26th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Max and Stacy, good show today. “There is no revolution in Iceland.” ?!? I think someone has been smoking the opium. As for the Alex Jones show, I listen as well and have come to believe that Alex just wants everyone to do their own investigation and come up with their own hypothesis. He even say not to believe him, but to check out what he says and confirm for yourself. Personally, I need to see it from three independant sources before it is even considered. I heard you comment on the Baltic Dry Index not to long ago and the fact that world wide shipping has tanked. Any more on that? What is the prognosis Doctor?
November 26th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Max, I very much agree about “it’s all connected”.
Both Bangkok and Mumbai in lockdown; superficially quite different stories but something is similar: in both cases, the source of the economic activity is being very visibly attacked. In Thailand’s case, the international airport is the key choke point for tourism, their number 1 industry, and in India, they chose Mumbai, the financial capital, rather than Delhi, the political capital.
Mumbai looks like a low tech 9-11 to me. (Although not *that* low tech - they’ve still got automatic weapons).
November 26th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Well, that’s the Enlightenment covered, I think.
Re: Anti-Americanism in the UK. It’s usually strikes me as the kind of distaste a butler feels for a master who comes from the nouveau riche. Recall the Archbishop of Canterbury comparing British imperialism of the past with modern US imperialism. Or how many loud ‘anti-war’ protests were yet so many people voted for a ‘New Labour’ candidate and re-elected Tony Blair?
It’s easier to carp about things at home and take a free ride on the back of US opposition. Complaining about a bunch of people an ocean away, who aren’t taking any notice, is much less demanding.
In that sense, Brown and Darling are representative of the broader public sentiment, blaming the US housing crash. It’s a message that’s been drummed home in most of the coverage of this crisis.
It’s just mistaking the pin that pricked the bubble for the bubble itself, and locating it as far away as possible.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:21 am
Begin rant:
Maldives are going to be under water in a few years so the government there has been stowing away billions to purchase a new ‘homeland’. Iceland has lots of space and needs billions. Wire me the commission when the deal goes down.
“Study the French Revolution”??? Americans have no fucking idea their own revolution was born in France - and was subsequently perverted into a colonial-military empire. US blew it early on and US empires’ death toll has reached, by my count, somewhere around two hundred and forty million innocents in a relatively short time, making them by far the most evil and murderous empire in the recorded history of man.
The only real revolutions currently going are in Venezuela, China, Russia, perhaps Thailand if it doesn’t turn into a military bloodbath on behalf of the pro-US/pro-corporate puppet regime, Cuba of course ongoing, Iran, and…
Hugo Chavez is a modern day Descarte, who does the US have? Obama Bin Biden? If Americans had a brain, if they really were not ‘OK’ with Empire, they would have voted Kucinich or Paul or Nader, instead of another blockhead empire retread in sheep’s clothing.
My favourite encyclopedia is Isidore of Seville’s which humbly claimed to encompass the Entirety of ‘Universal Knowledge”.
So China dumps the US dollar, what happens? US gets off scott free with a 50% devaluation overnight and China loses around $500B…better to use their USD in Africa to secure resource deals and unwind their dollar position over 5 years and only lose $250B - or whatever.
Food: Russia has 15% of the world’s arable land and 20% of the world’s fresh water. Look for millions of Chinese farmers to plow these fields in the future to feed the world while the US and Canada and Brazil devote almost their entire farmlands for absurd, negative return, “bio-fuels”.
Germans are smart. They know their future lies to the east, in particular Russia who share their peerless scientific aptitude - sorry, the US doesn’t qualify, as nearly ALL of it’s scientific progress is as a result of ‘Brain Drain’ from other countries, namely Germany, Russia, and China. Left to themselves USan’s would be pre-occupied with ten gallon hats, kicking cow patties, and chewing on straw. You can blame Hollywood for that: Mr. Chips goes to Ma and Pa Kettle’s house to “protect the border” from “illegal aliens” and distribute hate literature about “Islamo-fascists”.
Did the MSM even mention the McKinney Detainment? Nope. “The People” simply do not KNOW. Constitutional rights? Quaint. Magna Carta? I heard someone bought it recently.
Edvard Munch
End rant.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:26 am
Yeah on those terrorist attacks in mumbai. . .it seems like the revolution is turning. . .The terrorist guys were specifically targetting Americans and brittains. . .
if anyone remembers in the past year many Indians lost all of their savings when the stock markets crashed pretty much, hell even from the look of the terrorists (the photos form the security cameras) they looked like they would be well educated people.
so. . .they lose their life savings, and are now poor and starving, all from playing the stock market being the “savers” take the war between the speculators and the savers to the streets.
Im surprised many Americans now living in tents across the country arent doing the same thing. . .
unfortunately the effect will just be better for the us and uk governments, using the fact that they targeted Americans and Brits to scare the people from emmigrating out of the country like with what happened in Iceland. Of course the people probably wont realized the people targeted were those IN the TOP hotel of the financial sector in Mumbai the speculator’s capital of India, and without realizing that many Indians have lots everything because of the shadow war going on. . .
I fear a return to the “they hate us cause we’re free” mantra that us dumb Americans ate up after 911
but then again maybe that mantra actually does ring true. . .”They hate us cause we’re free”
“They” of course are: Bernanke, Paulson, Rubin, Cash Carry, Goldman sacs, Jp Morgan, Citygroup Coca Cola, Bush, Cheney, Exxon, Murdock&O’Reilly,
and other banker&huge coorporation CEOs and exec’s that are in on the Short selling of America, Britain, and Planet Earth.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:34 am
“In that sense, Brown and Darling are representative of the broader public sentiment, blaming the US housing crash. It’s a message that’s been drummed home in most of the coverage of this crisis.”
Meanwhile the “City” leadership chuckle heartily as the British public are yet again fooled into believing that all our woes are due to external forces out of the control of the nation.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:37 am
or maybe I should change the mantra to: They Hate(d) us because we (were) free
November 27th, 2008 at 4:02 am
Great converstaion,
when are you guys going to organise a grand party somewhere for all of us to get together swap ideas ,learn and have a great time?..Richmond would be fantastic…(where Patrick Henry Spoke(great old pub –which has the old chandeller out of one of the federal Reserve buildings (musy have cost a packet!) and plenty of history like Montecello to have some get togethers and broadcasts from)….
yes ,people have stopped believing in themselves and they no longer take risks….not really “risks”…people do not let their “inner voices of truth sing” any more…. they do not “Think ,Therefore I am”…….group think & letting “experts “do your thinking & formulating your opinions has been manipulated by taking advantage of childrens natural instincts to trust parental and “teacher” figures…and later into adulthood–manipulated with “paid off experts on the idiot box” ..where people get “programmed” information downloaded to themselves every night….
You two are fantastic….keep up the great work..
Thanks
November 27th, 2008 at 4:03 am
“All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed,
and third, it is accepted as self-evident.”
Arthur Schopenhauer
November 27th, 2008 at 7:33 am
Dutch News reported that the amount of money in the monetary system has increased more than expected.
In the period of three months running up and including October 2008 the average growth was 8,7% against 8,9% in the three months before that period.
Economic specialist foresaw a rising of the money supply of 8,5% over last three months and expected a slow down on the money supply to 8,0%!?
http://www.ecb.int/mopo/html/index.en.html
http://www.fd.nl/artikel/10578383/geldhoeveelheid-eurozone-sterker-dan-verwacht-gestegen
btw; What about this Warren Buffet rumor?
Warren Buffett Goldman Sachs RUMOR: Placed a 73 billion derivative bet on (cost 4 billion to place the bet) “the Dow Jones being a higher number within 10 years” - Dow was 1300 when this bet was placed. Now he’s owing somebody some money and the SCC got involved, could that be the 5 billion on the Goldman Sachs track record?
November 27th, 2008 at 8:25 am
ICELAND UPHEAVAL SIMPLY A IMF RIOT SIMPLY PHASE 3 OF THE IMF SCAM SCHEME?
- Is this Iceland upheaval a classical IMF World bank riot and are we indeed like Joe Stiglitz said SIMPLY IN PHASE 3 OF THE IMF SCAM SCHEME with the raising prices on food, water and later the oil end cooking gas.
IMF same exact four-step program.
1 Privatization ‘Briberization.’
2 IMF/World Bank capital market deregulation allows investment capital to flow in and out the “Hot Money” cycle.
3 Market-Based Pricing, a fancy term for RAISING PRICES FOR FOOD, WATER AND COOKING GAS 4 IMF and World Bank call their “poverty reduction strategy”: Free Trade- “THE IMF RIOT.”
http://www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold/
http://www.gregpalast.com/world-bank-secret-documents-consumes-argentinaalex-jones-interviews-reporter-greg-palast/
So, what is oil going to do? This low oil price is a problem for oil allot of oil harvesting companies the need around 100 dollar a barrel!? So, how’s this gonna workout?
November 27th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Now I mentioned Inflation (above) I just read that the Rabobank expects even in the Netherlands declining house prices which in fact already happened in some places and most certainly around the ECB. So, deflation + Inflation= (hyper later?) stagflation?
(source in Dutch) http://www.fd.nl/artikel/10574454/rabo-vreest-prijsdaling-20-huizenmarkt
November 27th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Hi from the UK,
Yep, you got it - revolution is in air … but in the UK we’ll struggle to get anyone interested in storming the Houses of Parliament. However, if we can get Brown to make inappropriate phone calls to an esteemed old actor he’ll be ousted out in a jiffy.
Great show - I have been downloading the podcast for about the last 2 wks. Would be good if you could get it onto iTunes; you deserve a big audience.
Thanks
Mark
November 27th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
The demos in Thailand are not of the people. It is a revolt of the elite, who are represented by the PAD.
Thaksin upset the elite when he provided the poor of Thailand with free medical care.
Thaksin waged a real war on drugs, 2000 dealers ended up dead. Bingo.
Thaksin’s problems got serious after he greatly reduced Thailand’s international debt. Little or no international debt allows a nation freedom from outside forces. This will not be tolerated by the bankers.
These demos are too well organised. If the PAD were in power the army would have been sent in with guns blazing.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
It seems Duncan Idaho, that first the dollar was made into toilet paper and now they’re wiping their ass with it going into commodities.
Maybe you know the story about the guy who bought the most expensive two very scarce post stamps? He destroyed one and the other became even more rare so surpassed the value of the former two post stamps! You see?
Creating a artificial scarcity like the Good Ol’ diamond trick (from Rothshield?) still seems to work. By promoting Bio-fuel this was bound to happen with food. Also Gold mines have been closed down by the Americans and Chavez took his one back. Now with the oil prices low you’ll get some sort of scarcity on the supply side cause only the cheap winning cost stay the others close down or are put on hold. So there already is capital destruction in that business also with the oil bulking harboring ship fleets. But maybe they will make up for those losses when oil prices will skyrocket after the first sharp rise in demand the same as with the street Gold price which is the only one to take serious anyways.
In fact the American oil companies already warned us of high oil prices in last may when the the American department of Energy stated that the supplies from the United States where declining rapidly!? Strange cause new oil has been found?
“Alaska Oil Find May Be Alaska’s 3rd Largest ,”;
http://in.reuters.com/article/rbssEnergyNews/idINN3031538820080530
Brazil Oil Find May Be World’s 3rd Largest
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/14/world/main4013564.shtml
“there are no physical shortages on the oil supply side” Said Shell Top CEO Jeroen van der Veer in June 2008 in a reaction on the high oil prices of the last months.
The weak dollar and some Geo-political tensions would be the cause of this high oil price. Also speculators are to blame for this so he claims. the CFTC again will start a investigation about speculators causing the doubling of the oil price from last year. IS THAT THE TRUTH?
btw; Shell bets his horses on Coal Gasification together with Australian Arrow Energy.
Other latest stories in the Newspaper warn us about oil shortages after a decade or a half depending which newspaper you read.
So, is the situation on oil merely subject to the scaremongering propaganda as well from the Americans or have they created a artificial scarcity by devilishly closing down “Physical” oil pumping?
Keeping oil prices low can be seen as one method of sort of making the supply scarce together with the closing down of supply from the U.S. this could be a devilish little scheme. The rocketing oil prices after will make up for the loses from today.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
[...] Max Keiser Radio — [1002] Max calls for a Cartesian economics “Max and Stacy talk about what it takes for revolution; Descartes; a Cartesian economics; Diderot; French Revolution; Catholic Church; Thai protests; La Muse; Germany refusing to use debt as wealth; food stamps for bankers.” economics debt fraud podcast MaxKeiser [...]
November 27th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Not Cartesian but Socratesian economics you are making a alphabet soup out of it Max?
Sorry, Max for being so egoistic in this scam scheme mode but “Cartesian economics”? Most people do not think at all so technically they don’t even exist
Maybe they have to find that out first and get out of the Matrix first and take the (blue or red I always forget) pill. Maybe first start with Greek Philosophy “know thyself” which was inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Tis easy to dis the roman church, and its true it
did get too big for its boots often, but in regard to the causes for the french revolution, a lot of it was to do with the sun kings particular policies in regard to his nobles (easy to overlook). The Roman church maybe seem a superfluous construct from a particular perspective. But that perspective was, let us not forget, the starting point for neo-liberal economics, that is that no one has a right to intrinsically exist unless they have money, or Proof, as Calvin put it. Now we reside, thanks to scottish presbyterian economists (Brown only stands the shadows) and founding calvanic puritans, a culture of exponential wealth growth which is now exhausting everything. It has no fundamental culture, it only justifies itself by the fact sheet of
wealth. The french revolution wasn’t an example of good reform or truth; it merely exposed the error in exclaiming that the Gloria of the church was all that it was. On one extreme you have St. Assisi, on the other you have the Medici. The lesson of the revolution, or more intrinsically, the reformation is that one could not eradicate greed and iniquity in a community by setting up a moral code based on opposition. Power always corrupts; to blame christianity or even the tibetan hirearchy as it stood before the cultural revolution for the sins of the past is easy, puerile and hypocritical. The reformation shares with bolshevism, islam & the american wasp mentality a male perspective on the human condition, exclusive of the female. Call it left-brain centric.
November 27th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
I think you are confusing Luther and Descarte. Luther railed against the authority of the Church to mediate the relationship between the individual and their God when the Catholic church was bloated, corrupt, and guilty of many things it preached against.
Descarte, on the other hand, was trying to build a consistent philosophy from “first principles” that demonstrated the existence of the Catholic God. His “I think therefore I am” would be equivalent to the “I think it has value, therefore it has value” mantra of the fraudsters on wall st since it is the thinking of a thing that imbues that thing with whatever was thought of it (with the unspoken authority of an undisputed God hiding in the shadows). It is an existential confidence game (Mark Taylor’s appearance on Puplava’s show did a much better job of explaining the religious underpinnings of an economics of nothing).
Complex systems such as nature or economics are not readily reduced to or, once reduced, are not readily reconstructed from, the simple mechanistic, atomistic models upon which Descarte and other enlightenment thinkers relied (Capra: “The Turning Point”). Thus, we are starting to acknowledge the seemingly obvious: that humans are not always rational actors, that equal access to perfect information is impossible, and that treating humans merely as resources of labor or capital is dehumanizing and incomplete.
The beauty of the US constitution (as originally written) is that it is prescriptive only on the limits of the government’s just authority leaving the people relatively free from the tyranny of government. Stupid people make poor choices and, given the preponderance of stupid people, it only takes a few good conmen to convince people that the excrement of the rich is the best nutrition for the poor. The poor believe this because it is the consensus despite the pandemic of obesity or the seemingly bad taste, which they might think can’t be bad because there seems to be a consensus that it is good. Such a system does not work well without smarter people and I really appreciate your continued efforts to educate us all. But I fear the system as a whole cannot but fail for our collective stupidity.
November 27th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
It’s black and white. Fundamentals don’t lie: 500 years ago an ounce of gold would buy you a respectable suit of clothing; in 1950 an ounce of gold would make you presentable on Wall Street; today an ounce of gold will get you a Zenya suit.
500 years ago a knight, outfitted with a serf and a horse, owned a castle, and was equivalent to a modern day fighter jet: about $100 million fiat dollars. This is the nature of our reality. Politics is power, enforced by the working class. Nothing has changed.
Capitalism is the enemy. Once you get that very simple concept through your thick noggins, then, perhaps, your children will not be subjected to the eternal evil that we have.
November 27th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Something that ANNOYS me: both Russia and Venezuela budgeted oil for 2009 at $60-$70/bbl.
According to the WORLDS WORST SOURCE FOR NEWS, BLOOMBERG, every time oil drops a fucking PENNY, Bloomberg trumps all manner of bullshit about how “Putin’s Russia” is about to “collapse” or how Venezuela’s “strongman” is facing defeat. It’s fucking bullshit.
This is how the world works: those who have resources and can defend them, win. Those who pretend at empire and only look for a “cut” of the action are fucking doomed.
November 27th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Credit crises endangers the energy supply in Europe.
Conclusion Capgemini in tenth edition rapport European Energy Markets Observatory EEMO (Looks at the near future of the European energy market).
Also the investments in sustainable energy sources are in danger.
25 biljoen Euro is needed for replacing the old electricity and gas infrastructure.
The credit crises harms these investments.
http://www.nl.capgemini.com/m/nl/n/pdf_Capgemini_presenteert_tiende_editie_van_rapport_European_Energy_Markets_Observatory__EEMO_.pdf
November 28th, 2008 at 1:21 am
I think, therefore I am
Cogito ergo sum
Rene Descarte:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum
November 28th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Good show. Glad you finally brought up the catholic church. We can understand a lot about con-artistry and tyranny by studying the history of religion.
Then you can apply that information to the present day corporate tyranny.
Its amazing how few people see these same patterns. We are going into neo-feudalism, where companies are the new aristocrats. Banks are the new royal families. Nobody is allowed to disagree with them or they get sued or shut out of a job.
We say we live in a democracy but our democracy is very basic and unrefined. Here in Ireland, we use the Westminster system so we only get to vote in a constituency election. We dont get a direct vote for the national government. And we dont get a chance to vote for nationally held seats.
Thats how they divide and rule us. Divide us into constituencies and they can win each area one by one.
Most people are too stupid to know they are being oppressed. They dont ask for more democracy because they dont know what democracy is. So long as they have money for pizzas and movies the sheeple are content.
November 28th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
well I stopped paying on my overpriced real estate 4 months ago A mexican women from chase called me but I could not understand her. maybe they will get me an interpreter .Stopped on my credit card payments .then I with drew all my money from my pension and bank and put into gold and silver ! If the irs tries to get me I am going to france think I can make some dough playing some delta blues slide on my national guitar on the street ? I do a mean son house immitation with a little tequila in me
November 29th, 2008 at 3:49 am
oh common!
those insects you saw in bangkok were not cockroaches. they were some other kind of more respectable species (my entomologist ladyboy boyfriend girl tells me they are some kind of cicada). kinda like the bushes vs. the obamas. edible none-the-less, with a little vinaigre, delicious. same genus, but not the same taste. CHANGE is a-commining! pffft…
btw, we’re still stuck in bangkok. no flights coming or going. kinda exciting. feels like kurt russel in escape from new york. then again he was not held hostage by people wanting to rob the vote from the unwashed, uneducated masses. what a mess old bhumi has on his hands now. long live the queef!
funny politics we have around these parts.
the show is only starting.
good luck.
gnumbo
December 1st, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Agree with other commenters about Thailand, its not a pro-democracy protest so much as a clash between 2 different elements of the elite, one with the support of the middle class, the other with the support of the poor. And as there are more poor, that side has been winning elections, and the other side isnt very happy and is stomping its feet and trying to create conditions for a coup. Im amazed at how long these protests have been going on without a brutal conclusion one way or another, especialyl as government offices have been occupied for months now I think.
As for revolution, I imagine there are plenty of leaders and others at the top who think they are having a revolution of thought and ideas in response to crunchy woetime, but its still early days, they’ve a lot further to travel as the crisis worsens. Im interested in if or when they start pondering whether the god of growth is dead. But for now we have to make do with the death of more minor doctrines, for example:
Stephen Lewis, economist at City broker Monument Securities, said the role of highly-paid City whizz-kids in creating the crisis may have helped the decision. “One way in which the world may have changed … is that the political consensus in favour of ‘trickle-down’ theories of wealth generation has collapsed. Mr Obama’s policies also call for a substantial increase in the tax burden borne by ‘the rich’.”
Above is tucked away in this guardian story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/24/pre-budget-report-alistairdarling2
December 22nd, 2008 at 7:19 am
Great show. First time I listened to one of your podcasts, but definitely not the last.
Someone on YouTube mentioned that you have a podcast. I was watching all these videos in which you tear apart dollar bills, produce bananas, and toy around with toilet paper. Hilarious.
Keep up the good work, you two. Please.
Leave a Reply